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Derath Ellecon
Washburne Holdings
Situation: Normal
129
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Posted - 2012.01.26 14:41:00 -
[1] - Quote
Specctor wrote:I think I perhaps failed to convay my point, I'm speaking mainly about the vast majority of subscribers who pay for there account via acquiring in game plexes via self generated isk.
These are your incursion runners, mission runners and miners "people who grind" people who can't pay for the subscription with real money for what ever reason.
The Csm recently discussed incursion vanguards being re balanced but would the decrease in cash made from them affect the possibility of large scale alliances manipulating plex prices with sinister and dark intentions.
They also mentioned a vast number of eve players who soely pay for their time in new Eden with plexes.
No you conveyed your point fine. It is fairly obvious that the vast number of plex purchasers buy them for game time. Considering they are only really good for three things.
1. Game time
2. Aurum
3. Market investment
Specctor wrote:I think you could cap the plex because a plex in its self as a commodity operates outside of normal commodity parameters, it doesn't build anything nor can it make you fight better.
Yet it is a necessity for some and a commodity for others an isk sink but at the same time it is an isk generator.
This is where you miss the point. PLEX is a commidity that operates within the normal parameters. When introduced they create isk, the same isk created by incursions, missions, etc. This isk is used to fund the economy (buying ships mods etc).
Like everything else in EVE it will balance with the market. If PLEX hits a billion it will be because enough players can still afford it at those prices. Otherwise demand will drop. Some players may unsub. Some players may drop from multiple accounts to fewer. Some players will simply pay with $$$ in the short term hoping to ride out the PLEX price increase.
When that starts happening PLEX demand will drop. Eventually the market will drop as well. Players that unsubbed will bring back those accounts and the great EVE market circle of life will continue.
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Derath Ellecon
Washburne Holdings
Situation: Normal
130
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Posted - 2012.01.26 15:38:00 -
[2] - Quote
Specctor wrote:So erm yea.... Lots of people unsubscribing for a while is concidered a good thing if it's only untill plex prices drop to normal parameters.... Then it starts over again....
Not really dealing with the issue is it Derath it's more like the burry your head and accept it crap politicians have fed the world for years...
Good one Chicken Little.
Nothing has changed. This cycle will exist regardless of the current PLEX price. When the prices went from 250 to 350 it became too rich for some. Same when it went from 350-450. At some point it will hit an equilibrium and at another it will likely drop. That is of course assuming a change to the current isk faucets.
At none of these levels has there been a massive un-sub. So to say suddenly "lots of people" will unsubscribe is just unsubstantiated "sky is falling" thinking.
It's not burying my head in the sand. It's keeping the open and free EVE market open and free.
Specctor wrote:Remove the issue so the masses can play the game without being incursion slaves or mass wealth gain through plex exploitation and you have your self an even keel.....
If the price was at a more achievable level through standard professions like mining you would see mineral prices lower and a more stable eve economy not the credit crunchh esq rollercoaster we are headed towards.
Playing the game for "free" via PLEX is not an entitlement. Not to mention there are other ramifications of artificially forcing a lower PLEX price. For one, it would lower demand for those who actually buy them for isk. Which lowers PLEX supply. Low supply and low price could cause the issue where there simply are not any more isk to buy (all bought up).
In this case you then likely have all the PLEX held by some of the richest players, who will hoard them for years of free gameplay. And that helps everyone else how?
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Derath Ellecon
Washburne Holdings
Situation: Normal
133
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Posted - 2012.01.26 17:20:00 -
[3] - Quote
Specctor wrote: Ok Yogi Bear But what's to say plexes have to be limited...
Really? You do realize that a PLEX on the market is only there because someone paid real $$ to purchase it outside of the game?
People buy them because they want quick and easy isk right? Right now people look and see for $30ish they can get almost a billion isk. Pretty good deal, so people who can afford it are doing so for a nice chunk of isk.
Now lets say CCP comes in and puts an artificial ceiling on PLEX. Say for argument $375 (about what it was maybe around september if I recall?) What do you think will happen?
Demand for PLEX will rise. I know I would gobble more up. Many people holding onto PLEX may hoard them, rather than sell for a huge loss over current prices, which will happen anytime you decide to artifically set a limit on a previously open market item.
At the same time, that same person looking for easy isk now see's that $30 will only get him 750mil isk. So you will have fewer people willing to spend $$ to create plex.
Demand goes up, supply goes down. But since you now have capped PLEX prices the market cannot adjust properly, so supply keeps getting bought up until a time comes that PLEX could run out completely.
Specctor wrote:Plexes are entitlement clearly they enable people to play the game with in game funds if they wernt then you wouldn't be able to renew your subscription with them....."this item extends your game time by 30 days when activated" not "this item extends your game time for 30 days you cheap punk your not entitled to say you play eve if anyone asks"
Dude, you really need to look up the definition of entitlement. You are using it wrong.
Specctor wrote:Unfortunetly the facts remain a F*** load of people play via plex and suggesting they should go away untill they can afford it is ludicrous...
Why? Again playing the game via PLEX (for free) is not an entitlement (look it up).
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Derath Ellecon
Washburne Holdings
Situation: Normal
133
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Posted - 2012.01.26 19:18:00 -
[4] - Quote
Specctor wrote:Derath you need to look up the word possible because it was a possible soloution......Although you have now enlightened me and I now see your point capping them is probably a bad idea sure yea your right..
Nice try but fail. I don't need to look up the word possible. However you should probably refresh yourself on the words "relevance" and "redundant"
The word possible has no relevance with the argument in this thread. In fact it is redundant in its use. Why? By starting this thread your OP implies a possible solution whether you used the word possible or not. All I have done is argue against this possible solution.
I'll give you an A for effort though
Specctor wrote:PLAYERS LEAVING THE GAME DUE TO NOT BEING ABLE TO AFFORD PLEXES IS STILL A BAD THING GIVEN THE AMMOUNT OF PEOPLE WHO USE THEM FOR GAME TIME THOUGH!
Not really. I would actually bet money that CCP doesn't care all that much what happens to plex in game. In fact I bet they cheer when PLEX gets blown up in some random gank.
Once a PLEX becomes an in game item, CCP already got their real world money for it.
Specctor wrote:do you think everyone will come back after they have had the break from the game or do you think they will find some other mmo?
If someone cannot afford EVE without a PLEX do you think they are gonna shell out $$ for another MMO? |
Derath Ellecon
Washburne Holdings
Situation: Normal
133
|
Posted - 2012.01.26 19:26:00 -
[5] - Quote
Specctor wrote:"PLEX is one of the biggest subscription methods in EVE"
That is a quote from the csm meeting minuets and the topic was started by ccp.
The fact is people can walk away if they cant pay via isk or cash.... the problem is its a question potentially thousands of people will have to ask them selves in the up and coming Plexment Day,
Concequeses of a mass player Subscription break are potentially Game ending what if 10k people said i cant be arsed working so hard for my plex all the time its booring and because my mortgage has gone up i cant afford to play eve so i guess ill have to stop playing eve alltogether....
Thats my point thats the problem with unchecked plex inflation.
Capitalisum is inherently flawed because it requires constant growth and Inflation to Work, the only difference in eve is that people can and will walk away if they choose to.
This whole argument is flawed.
Everyone pays for EVE. If you pay for your gametime with a PLEX, someone else shelled out $15 for you.
If anything, the players who can only afford to play EVE via PLEX actually COST CCP potential revenue.
When someone buy's a GTC and coverts to PLEX, CCP makes say $30. now if those PLEX sit in game and never get redeemed for gametime. OR if they get blown up. That is FREE MONEY for CCP. (sort of). Basically CCP got $30 which was used for extra internet pixels.
Now if someone comes along and uses that PLEX to extend their gametime, CCP now lost a potential $15 that the user otherwise would have spent to extend their gametime.
So if you have a player who only plays via PLEX, and would quit otherwise, CCP isn't technically losing money from them quitting. CCP doesn't make any money from people who redeem PLEX. They make money from people who buy GTC and turn them into PLEX. |
Derath Ellecon
Washburne Holdings
Situation: Normal
133
|
Posted - 2012.01.26 19:42:00 -
[6] - Quote
Specctor wrote:Derath I dont know why your atacking me on a personal level but I urge you to stop I agreed with you buddy.....let it go....
Be constructive or find someone els to troll I wont reply directly to you from now on unless what you have to say is on constructive and progressive discussion level although the bumping of this thread you have provided is apriciated.
With the exception of the "possible" thing, nothing has been a personal attack. And that was a playful jab back from your playful jab at me.
Everything else has been refuting your arguments on the economy and mechanics of PLEX. Maybe you just didn't read those parts. |
Derath Ellecon
Washburne Holdings
Situation: Normal
133
|
Posted - 2012.01.26 20:39:00 -
[7] - Quote
Specctor wrote:Derath Ellecon wrote:Specctor wrote:"PLEX is one of the biggest subscription methods in EVE"
That is a quote from the csm meeting minuets and the topic was started by ccp.
The fact is people can walk away if they cant pay via isk or cash.... the problem is its a question potentially thousands of people will have to ask them selves in the up and coming Plexment Day,
Concequeses of a mass player Subscription break are potentially Game ending what if 10k people said i cant be arsed working so hard for my plex all the time its booring and because my mortgage has gone up i cant afford to play eve so i guess ill have to stop playing eve alltogether....
Thats my point thats the problem with unchecked plex inflation.
Capitalisum is inherently flawed because it requires constant growth and Inflation to Work, the only difference in eve is that people can and will walk away if they choose to. This whole argument is flawed. Everyone pays for EVE. If you pay for your gametime with a PLEX, someone else shelled out $15 for you. If anything, the players who can only afford to play EVE via PLEX actually COST CCP potential revenue. When someone buy's a GTC and coverts to PLEX, CCP makes say $30. now if those PLEX sit in game and never get redeemed for gametime. OR if they get blown up. That is FREE MONEY for CCP. (sort of). Basically CCP got $30 which was used for extra internet pixels. Now if someone comes along and uses that PLEX to extend their gametime, CCP now lost a potential $15 that the user otherwise would have spent to extend their gametime. So if you have a player who only plays via PLEX, and would quit otherwise, CCP isn't technically losing money from them quitting. CCP doesn't make any money from people who redeem PLEX. They make money from people who buy GTC and turn them into PLEX. "It must be stated that contrary to public perception, it is in CCPGÇÖs interest to have the PLEX prices low (as opposed to high) because of the number of users using that subscription method. There is no guarantee that those users will switch over to other methods could they not afford PLEX with ISK. Nor is it in CCPGÇÖs interest that users have to grind more in order to maintain their subscription method should the price of PLEX go up GÇô using more of their time in the game to pay for PLEX and not to enrich the EVE environment. CCP is therefore closely monitoring both the PLEX trade and the economy in general, very closely." The bottom of page 9 of the csm minuets Sir. I like the part about enriching the enviroment which is perhaps another problem ccp is adressing alltogether f less people had to grind the more they would pvp or perhaps settle in new areas of space and start there own eve chapter, rather than the obvious work for plex slavery which is currently insuing.
Yes, I actually read the entire PLEX section, rather than the one quote out of context. And yes I agree PLEX has a danger for market manipulation and so forth.
But it does not change the hard fact that CCP does not make any money from the guy who uses a plex for gametime. None, zero, nada. They make money from the guy who bought the GTC and turned it into a PLEX.
Now those PLEX players are important in the sense that they are buyers for the people that purchase GTC's So yes there has to be a balance between the two.
I guess at this point the real question is what is this thread really about at this point. If I may try to distille down your arguments (you can correct me if I am wrong), your original arguments for this thread revolved around.
1. The danger of imminent PLEX inflation (1bil isk PLEX)
2. A possible solution being an artifical cap on PLEX pricing.
at this point it seems
1. PLEX inflation is obviously a possibility, but the overall effects on the game at this point is largely wild speculation.
2. As you mentioned you agreed, an artificial cap is likely not a good solution.
So where to take this thread now?
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Derath Ellecon
Washburne Holdings
Situation: Normal
133
|
Posted - 2012.01.27 00:48:00 -
[8] - Quote
Specctor wrote:Burry your head and hope the problem disappears.....
You have used this argument already.
It's not burying your head. CCP for better or worse, created EVE with a no holds barred open market system. I dont see any reasonable way for them to directly manipulate the market without causing bigger issues.
We've talked about price caps.
They could add PLEX to the market. But this does not benefit them as it is like giving away free gametime.
They could sell PLEX at a discount. But they have done this twice in the last 4-5 months and that hasn't done much.
They could silently buy up PLEX and trash them, or resell them at a lower price. But this is underhanded and probably illegal in some way.
The only valid thing would be to adjust the Isk sinks. They could also slowly adjust some isk faucets, but that would involve more than just incursions. The rich in EVE need more crap to spend their isk on. The Aurum store was supposed to help, but that was half implemented and a flop.
Essentially within the game model you need to increase supply or reduce demand. Increasing supply doesnt seem to help. There are simply too many eve billionaires who will gobble up and hoard them. I don't see how to reduce supply since everyone would love to PLEX their accounts. |
Derath Ellecon
Washburne Holdings
Situation: Normal
134
|
Posted - 2012.01.27 16:12:00 -
[9] - Quote
Specctor wrote:Final idea what about making plex a Sort of hot potato give them and expiry date or give plexes a maximum number per account type figure say x plexes can be bought and stored per account max.
Now this wouldn't be bad idea. I don't know if you could really retroactively add an expiration date. But in general this would certainly help the issue.
And it isn't too far fetched. When I sell my clients pre-paid blocks of consulting hours they have to use them within 12 months. |
Derath Ellecon
Washburne Holdings
Situation: Normal
136
|
Posted - 2012.01.30 01:36:00 -
[10] - Quote
Iron Straw wrote:Derath Ellecon wrote:
This is where you miss the point. PLEX is a commidity that operates within the normal parameters. When introduced they create isk, the same isk created by incursions, missions, etc. This isk is used to fund the economy (buying ships mods etc).
Blatantly wrong. C'mon MD l33t, typically this guy would be berated for this. Because he is arguing with the OP (who is also wrong) you let this slide? Discuss among yourselves.
Yes I see my egregious error upon re-reading this. I was so intent on the larger porint I was trying to make that I chose my words here poorly.
I do however contend that my larger point still holds true. Namely that PLEX is not some sort of ultra uniqute type of commodity in EVE that it should have special rules governing its sale on the market.
What I meant to convey so horribly above, is that PLEX is another method for players to increase isk in their wallet, much like incursions, or pirate ransoms etc. I was not meaning to imply that PLEX is an isk faucet in the game.
Please oh MD L33t forgive me. |
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